Talk:Blaze Release
QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES WILL BE REMOVED, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT long story short Latest chapter has proven an old theory that was argued to death here. Basically: * Amaterasu is Blaze Release * Kagatsuchi and Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi are 2 different techniques * Kagatsuchi can alter only flames cast by Amaterasu, therefore both eyes are required * While Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi uses only 1 eye and is Amaterasu+Kagatsuchi--Elveonora (talk) 11:54, June 25, 2014 (UTC) :There's no distinction to be made between "Kagutsuchi ", and " Enton: Kagutsuchi "; left eye's dōryoku—Amaterasu—is always necessary for Enton's creation. :That aside, if this gets the rest of you to finally acknowledge Amaterasu's black flames as Enton, then happy day, I guess. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 12:05, June 25, 2014 (UTC) ::1) How did last chapter prove that? Especially since it was used exactly the same as it always has. ::2) I don't see how you came from that. It was used, again exactly as it always has. He just didn't put the entire name in the panel. ::3) ....We knew this. Forever ago. I believe it was C or someone that stated he casts Amaterasu from left eye and Blaze Release from right. So...yay for being right again? ::4) I don't even know what this point is trying to say.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 12:09, June 25, 2014 (UTC) There's plenty of instances where Sasuke has one eye closed and only one open and uses Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi and creates the flames with shape without having cast them with Amaterasu first and then shaped them. While this time, he used Amaterasu and then Kagatsuchi--Elveonora (talk) 12:11, June 25, 2014 (UTC) :Care to provide when? The only one I have from recent memory where is actually closing his eye was when A was about to drop kick him to hell and back, and that time he already had Susanoo on blackfire.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 12:14, June 25, 2014 (UTC) ::And by recent memory I mean my memory.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 12:17, June 25, 2014 (UTC) :::There hasn't been a single instance in which we have witnessed Sasuke use his right eye alone to create the black flames. Many are still making the mistake of using the example from Chapter 641 as proof of it's Nature Transformation, when we were only seeing him continue to use his right eye's ocular power to accomplish what he said he intended to do in the preceding page: match Naruto's chakra output. This was after the flames were already present. :::Sasuke's use of Kagutsuchi in this Chapter is no different than when he used it's first named example in Chapter 464, and that was called "'''Blaze Release': Kagutsuchi". There's no need to fabricate a discrepancy between Kagutsuchi with and without it's Nature Release prefix. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 12:25, June 25, 2014 (UTC) ::::And I'd like to point out once again that I find the notion of Blaze Release being Amaterasu's manipulated flames ridiculous. Shape Transformation does not make a Nature Release. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 12:28, June 25, 2014 (UTC) Except Obito absorbed the Amaterasu in chapter 641 so there were no flames present when he used Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi, also chapter 632--Elveonora (talk) 12:38, June 25, 2014 (UTC) :We witness him using his right eye alone '''after' the black flames are already present around his left hand in the preceding panel. That is not sufficient proof of his right eye being capable of creating Blaze Release. Amaterasu's Nature Transformation is always involved when we see him suddenly springing up the black flames as he's exclaiming "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi". This is the first time the author's demonstrated Amaterasu's part in this cooperation of Sasuke's two ocular powers, and I believe that is only due to the limited circumstance he was put in—because of the minuscule time frame in which they're used together, we normally don't see it. :If anything, this chapter lends credence to what I tried explaining to you guys in the archived discussion. If Kagutsuchi alone could simply create the black flames from his body, or chakra, why cast Amaterasu in such close proximity? Because it's necessary. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 12:50, June 25, 2014 (UTC) ::Yes, to me it is more than sufficient proof. In chapter 641 on one page there's no flame in his hand, while on another there suddenly is and you just assume that he must have cast the Amaterasu off the screen. Same in chapter 632, you simply assume that he cast Amaterasu off-panel prior to using Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi and saving Sakura. Assumptions aren't evidence--Elveonora (talk) 13:15, June 25, 2014 (UTC) :::On the same token Elveonora, you assume that because it was shown offscreen, that it didn't happen. How many times have Naruto slammed a Rasengan at something, but never showed us forming the Rasengan? Did the Rasengan magically appear in his hand or did he use it offscreen The leverage SaiST has however of now actually seeing the combined efforts of casting Kagutsuchi, instead of just the Kagutsuchi part.?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 13:24, June 25, 2014 (UTC) ::::Ironically, that example of the Rasengan's formation and additional hands mirrors the situation we now have with Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, and I brought that up a number of times in the archived discussion. ::::I'm assuming that both dōryoku are being used in tandem, because their roles have long been officially detailed to us; his right eye's creation of Blaze Release not being among them. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 13:31, June 25, 2014 (UTC) So you mean to tell me that the "blaze release" gets omitted for no reason in particular and in the very chapter where we are actually shown black flame manipulation with Amaterasu and Kagatsuchi in a row and that the same was done in previous chapters but the Amaterasu was simply used off-screen... right. Either of us is paranoid :P But I'm an atheist, I believe in only what I can perceive and that being: * Usage of Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi without the Amaterasu having been shown to be cast prior and even in one instance only 1 of Sasuke's eyes shown open * This time Amaterasu is cast and then a technique called Kagatsuchi (without the blaze release part) is used to manipulate it * Therefore there's 2 ways to do it in my book--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, June 25, 2014 (UTC) Home, sweet home~ Okay, so we have a new chapter and we have Sasuke using Amaterasu and afterwards Kagutsuchi. What we do not have is a Blaze Release prefix. This is the first time this has happened and either it's a mistake and we'll know it when the tankobon version is released, or it's intentional. Since there's no way for us to know if it's a mistake or not, we handle it as a fact. Why is there no Blaze Release here? The answer is as obvious as it can get: There is no need to release the flames anymore, since Sasuke's done that with Amaterasu already. This also confirms that Amaterasu is indeed Blaze Release, since the Kagutsuchi is what manipulates it. Any questions? • Seelentau 愛 議 19:37, June 25, 2014 (UTC) Oh great. This again. This chapter did nothing new, we already knew everything that happened in it as far as Blaze Release is concerned. Omnibender - Talk - 19:47, June 25, 2014 (UTC) I think we should just document things as they come and what they appear to be at a time rather than dodging something forever and waiting for definitively definitive "proof" that may never come. And yes, we should also rationalize the information we are given, because we are humans and not bots/computers. And as such, it's more logical to assume that there's a reason for no Blaze Release prefix than that it is a mistake or was omitted for no reason in particular, even though it was always there the past 10 times or more the technique got used. It's all too coincidental that in the same chapter as it is omitted in, we are also shown for the first time Sasuke using Amaterasu beforehand rather than just Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi. And I don't eat the "amaterasu was used offpanel" theory. Surely Kishi could reserve a tiny panel for the Amaterasus if they were used, which I insist they weren't.--Elveonora (talk) 19:54, June 25, 2014 (UTC) :Wait, so now that you can finally turn Amaterasu into a Blaze Release, the suffix doesn't matter? Godsdamnit people, nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, we haven't seen a hundred times before occurred in this chapter. Except Naruto Man Flashing Kaguya. That was new. But seriously, nothing has changed. Absolutely nothing at all. We knew, from the godsdamned get go of when Sasuke pulled Blaze Release out his butt, that it was cast from one eye, and then manipulated with the other. Like seriously you two, you two will beat a dead dolphin horse until it bursts if you could. :Nothing new was done in this chapter. Nothing is changed. The end. And yes, this is the end. You'll have a leg to stand on when Kishimoto finally goes "Blaze Release: Amaterasu". Until then. This ends. Go pick something else to break.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 20:08, June 25, 2014 (UTC) ::So Chidori isn't Raiton, since it's no Lightning Release: Chidori ;) Kagatsuchi is the manipulation of black flames, that much you can agree on. But manipulation of something isn't a new nature. Therefore what it manipulates must be the nature, so Amaterasu is Blaze Release, doesn't take a genius to figure out imo--Elveonora (talk) 20:14, June 25, 2014 (UTC) :::Elvenora. I literally cannot pretend to care enough about your argument anymore. Because that argument has not changed in the last year you've tried it. As I said, it's done. Not going to change until Kishimoto actually tells us otherwise. The end.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 20:19, June 25, 2014 (UTC) ::::Your reactions haven't changed over the years either, they are still as much worth it as ever.--Elveonora (talk) 20:20, June 25, 2014 (UTC) that it was cast from one eye, and then manipulated with the other. - but that is not the case. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:38, June 25, 2014 (UTC) Does Naruto put wind release every time he uses the rasenshuriken? Seriously, this is just ridiculous. Nothing has changed. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:28, June 25, 2014 (UTC) Kishimoto likes to contratict himself. He makes the scenarios how they suit him best. We saw Sasuke using Amaterasu with the left and then Kagutsuchi with the right. But didn't we see Sasuke using and shaping the black flames when his eyes were bonded? Of course, Kagutsuchi manipulates the flames which he created with Amaterasu as well, but that doesn't mean that he can't create them without Amaterasu, since he was shown to activate Susanoo with the orb of black flames without the usage of Amaterasau, even when his eyes were BONDED. This is CANON. And Kishimoto is STUPID. Lol. --Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 11:42, June 28, 2014 (UTC) :As I said to you multiple times in the archived discussion, the ability to create and shape Blaze Release are being made manifest through Sasuke's Susanoō. S'why we consider it an alternate source of the black flames. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 16:14, June 28, 2014 (UTC) ::So the black flames of Amaterasu are no Blaze Release, with Blaze being black flames? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:25, June 28, 2014 (UTC) :::No, we've always been on the same page in this respect. Amaterasu's black flames are Blaze Release. The conflict here has only been about how Kagutsuchi is used... Honestly, a large part of that former discussion should have been held in Kagutsuchi's Talk Page. :/ —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 16:29, June 28, 2014 (UTC) ::::Okay, and Blaze Release is the release of the black flames, right? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:33, June 28, 2014 (UTC) :::::Yes, creation of black flames. You are now seeing the lack of that prefix upon Kagutsuchi(I'm assuming that was true in the raw text, if you're bringing it up now) as an indication of it's inclusion alluding to the right eye's creation of the black flames. My retort in this current discussion has been that it was seen with that prefix in it's first named example in the beginning of 464, where Sasuke was manipulating flames that were already present. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 16:37, June 28, 2014 (UTC) ::::::I agree, he did that. So you don't need to create black flames to control them with Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. But if the Blaze Release is about creating the black flames, then the Kagutsuchi part would be about the shape manipulation, wouldn't it? This was (in my eyes) confirmed by the last chapter and Sasuke's use of Kagutsuchi. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:50, June 28, 2014 (UTC) :::::For the record, part of me hates even arguing this with you, as I WANT the black flames to be classified here properly. I just can't agree to Kagutsuchi's creation of them. —「[[User Talk:SaiST|'SaiST']]」 16:42, June 28, 2014 (UTC) Nature Could it be added after stating that it is unknown what natures make this up, that is is speculated that it might not even be a mixture of two natures since alot of people seem to think this. --Jspencer93 (talk) 02:52, August 11, 2014 (UTC) :Every release is made of different natures, there's no reason to think this isn't. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:14, August 11, 2014 (UTC) ::You are right saiyng that "everey Release is made of different natures", and based on this it is logical to assume that also Blaze Release is... but given how it works, to me is also logical to assume that it is not. There are at least two reason to think that Blaze Release could be something different than a Chakra Nature, at least from my point of view: ::* it is (clearly) a Sharingan technique... it would be the first (and only) power that needs two Kekkai Genkai ::* all the other (canon, I don't remember the ones used by Hiruko) Chakra Nature creates their own element, while Blaze Release only controls already existents black flames ::I think it could be worth at least mention those two differences with the other Chakra Natures in a trivia section, but I'm with spencer in mentioning also that it is not clear if Blaze Release is a Chakra Nature or not, at least until Kishimoto unravels the mistery.Gilgamesh85 (talk) 10:25, August 11, 2014 (UTC) :::Blaze Release releases black flames and yes, it's casted with a MS, which is unique. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:30, August 11, 2014 (UTC) The common conclusion is that Amaterasu is in fact Blaze Release, that's why technique controlling Amaterasu itself is Blaze Release. The only problem is that 3rd Databook stated it to be Fire Release, but look at it, it also said that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are needed for Susanoo and look at the bullshit going on revolving Kakashi using Perfect Susanoo seemingly without Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi and all the long long long years debates about Sasuke's to some phantom Tsukuyomi.--Elveonora (talk) 10:59, August 11, 2014 (UTC) :It is partly Fire Release, making it that nature group's strongest technique. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:02, August 11, 2014 (UTC) ::Funny how "we" "deduced" (forcefully so) that sand control is Magnet Release, yet some of us refuse to deduce that Amaterasu is Blaze Release.--Elveonora (talk) 11:18, August 11, 2014 (UTC) :::Did you see my RTS about that topic? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:21, August 11, 2014 (UTC) ::::What is RTS in this context?--Elveonora (talk) 11:30, August 11, 2014 (UTC) :::::This. :) • Seelentau 愛 議 11:33, August 11, 2014 (UTC) Kekkei Genkai Details Not all Kekkei Genkai involves a mixture of two Natures. Sharingan, Byakugan, Shadow Posession, Expansion, etc. This Kekkei Genkai is just applying Shape Transformation to Amaterasu to adapt to different situations.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 19:31, August 13, 2014 (UTC) :None of those is a chakra nature Kekkei Genkai, so your comparison is moot. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:58, August 13, 2014 (UTC) ::@Cloud, an advanced nature is a blend of two or more basic natures. To do such a thing, one in most cases needs a kekkei genkai for that or tailed beast power. Unless Sasuke (I mean Kishi) made up "Blaze Release" just to confuse us, it has to be a nature. It isn't one of the basic ones, therefore it must be an advanced nature. The only known Blaze Release technique is Kagatsuchi, which manipulates Amaterasu. A technique controlling a nature isn't a different one from the controlled nature. A technique turning water into a dragon is Water Release, technique moving land is Earth Release etc. so logically Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi has to be the same nature as the one it controls - Amaterasu.--Elveonora (talk) 20:20, August 13, 2014 (UTC) @Elveo: according to your logic, since Amaterasu is a Fire Release technique, then Blaze Release is Fire Release, lol.-- [[User:JOA20|'JOA']]''20'' 20:25, August 13, 2014 (UTC) :Technically Blaze Release is fire because it manipulates the Fire Release Amaterasu. What else makes Blaze Release well that's the question for the goddamned ages isn't it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 20:38, August 13, 2014 (UTC) ::Blaze Release is partially Fire Release, yes. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:40, August 13, 2014 (UTC) :::We were basically told that Kagatsuchi adds shape manipulation to Amaterasu and shape manipulation isn't a nature. That means Amaterasu is Blaze Release without a doubt. Too bad we can't do a thing because damn Kishi originally stated it to be Fire Release. @JOA, yes, I know we can't say it's Blaze Release even though logical--Elveonora (talk) 20:50, August 13, 2014 (UTC) I don't quite understand the logic in which Amaterasu is not a Blaze Release jutsu to be perfectly honest. Sasuke coined the term, however Kagutsuchi is manipulation of the dark flames, so would logic not dictate that Amaterasu is Enton too?--Reliops (talk) 16:03, September 10, 2014 (UTC) Blaze Release=Highest Level of Fire Release? Hello there. Recently, it was decided that Amaterasu is Blaze Release. Since Amaterasu is the highest level of Fire Release according to the Third Databook, then Blaze Release (which to our knowledge is casting Amaterasu and applying Shape Transformation to the black flames), then isn't it logical that Blaze Release is the highest level of Fire Release?-- [[User:JOA20|'JOA']]''20'' 12:40, September 24, 2014 (UTC) :Because Amaterasu isn't necessarily the only Enton technique, there may be others.--Elveonora (talk) 12:42, September 24, 2014 (UTC) ::So you're saying that there are other techniques which aren't the highest level of Fire Release and they would still be Blaze Release? That sounds ridiculous to me, but whatever.-- [[User:JOA20|'JOA']]''20'' 12:43, September 24, 2014 (UTC) :::Just like all Lightning Release techniques aren't Chidori, all Blaze Release techniques aren't necessarily Amaterasu. For example Sasuke's Susanoo can form them and Sasuke himself can do so in his palm as well, so Amaterasu isn't the only source of the black flames. The reason Amaterasu was stated to be highest level Fire Release is because it's as hot as the sun (or so does legend say) that doesn't mean the Blaze Release chakra nature itself is as hot as the sun, only Amaterasu that employs said nature is--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, September 24, 2014 (UTC) ::::Oh man... Blaze Release is the release of black flames. Amaterasu is one technique that uses these black flames and was called the highest Fire Release technique. Kagutsuchi (which forms the flames) is another Blaze Release but isn't the highest Fire Release technique. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:57, September 24, 2014 (UTC) :::::Let me see if I understand. So, what's the difference between Blaze Release and Amaterasu?. In case that your answer is that Amaterasu is just one technique and Blaze Release is the whole set, which are the other techniques?. LeoHatake 15:57, September 24, 2014 (UTC) ::::::Yes, Amaterasu is to Blaze Release what Chidori is to Lightning Release - a technique that employes said nature. Other Blaze Release techniques are Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi, Blaze Release: Susanoo Kagutsuchi and Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama.--Elveonora (talk) 16:02, September 24, 2014 (UTC) Actually, that makes a lot of sense, however, there's a little hole in your point. If Amaterasu only consist in cast a bunch of black flames, why it was named this technique with the prefix "Amaterasu" if he is using the black flames in another way different that regular (I mean just throw it). So, as you can see, this means that all the techniques that you mentioned are derived of Amaterasu and no different or only-related to it. LeoHatake 16:20, September 24, 2014 (UTC) :Because that name comes from a videogame--Elveonora (talk) 16:33, September 24, 2014 (UTC) ::Then, if the community isn't going to use that name (and the others obtained from the video games) as canon, the articles should be renamed to avoid confusion or discussions in the future. If that is settled, I think that I'm done with the topic because, in general terms, it does makes sense the whole thing of Blaze Release. LeoHatake 16:39, September 24, 2014 (UTC) :::What's so hard to understand? Blaze Release is the release of a chakra nature, in this case black flames. Amaterasu is a technique that makes use of this chakra nature. The name of that one jutsu isn't canon, but since we don't have anything better, we use it. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:47, September 24, 2014 (UTC) ::::According to the trivia, in the manga, this technique was described as "Shield of Black Flames" (黒炎の盾, Kokuen no Tate), unless my eyes are failing me. LeoHatake 16:56, September 24, 2014 (UTC) :::::Yes, but that's just a description. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:58, September 24, 2014 (UTC) ::::::I would believe that a manga description is 100% more canon and reliable than a name given by a video game but well, it's just me. LeoHatake 17:01, September 24, 2014 (UTC) @Leo, that's why I oppose us "canonizing" video game techniques by attributing them to manga phenomena/labeling unnamed manga phenomena with videogame terms--Elveonora (talk) 17:07, September 24, 2014 (UTC) Amaterasu is the black flames making it the highest fire release. Blaze Release is just the type of KG nothing to do with being the highest fire technique. With Blaze Release it creates Amaterasu and can be manipulated. Rachin123 (talk) 17:15, September 24, 2014 (UTC)Rachin123